Reimagining Government episode 3: transcript

Adrian Brown: [00:00:00] Last time on Reimagining Government, we covered the urgent global challenge of the climate crisis. We heard from public servants experimenting with pioneering initiatives in cities across the world. They showed us that if we want to accelerate climate action, city governments need to take a leading role and they must collaborate at all levels, prioritise building relationships with communities, share learning, and embrace the challenge in all its complexity.

Excerpt from conference speech: I'd like to, uh, now introduce a guest, Harry Smith. Harry is a survivor of The Great Depression and an activist for the poor and for the preservation of social democracy.

Adrian Brown: Today we turn our attention to another great challenge, one that has been brought into sharp focus by the recent COVID-19 Pandemic; health and social care.

Harry Leslie Smith: I came into this world in the rough and ready year, 1923. I'm [00:01:00] from Barnsley, and I can tell you that my childhood was not like an episode from Downton Abbey. Instead, it was a barbarous time. It was a bleak time, and it was an uncivilised time because public healthcare didn't exist. As I stand here today, my heart is with all those people from my generation who didn't make it past childhood, but my heart is also with the people of the present who, because of welfare cuts and austerity measures, are struggling once more to make ends meet.

Adrian Brown: Though the worst effects of the pandemic may now be behind us, COVID-19 exposed serious issues and aggravated existing shortcomings in many health and social care systems, and people are still feeling the consequences. In the UK, for example, people are facing longer waiting times at A&E, lingering longer [00:02:00] on waiting lists. And, in cases of suspected cancer, many cannot see a specialist within two weeks of an urgent doctor's referral.

Harry Leslie Smith: My life is your history and we should keep it that way.

Adrian Brown: Of course these issues are not unique to the UK. In countries around the world, the COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the need for a health and social care system that works for everyone, that is able to adapt to crisis situations, and that reimagines the traditional hierarchies that can be a barrier to better outcomes for people. So what might this new vision for health and social care look like in practice?

Reimagining Government is a podcast where we shine a light on changemakers, sharing their ideas on how to reimagine a new government equipped to face modern challenges and find real solutions. This episode is hosted by Director for Europe at the Centre for Public Impact, [00:03:00] Katie Rose.

Katie Rose: Hi, my name is Katie Rose. Before joining the Centre for Public Impact, I spent some time in the Department for Education in the UK government, where I worked in the Special Educational Needs team and Private Office under Jonathan Slater, the then Permanent Secretary. Before that, I worked in communications strategy, supporting healthcare organisations to tell their stories.

In my current role at CPI, I work with governments and public and non-profit organisations across Europe, supporting them to transform their thinking and practice to make government work better for people. Much of this has involved exploring what a new model for health and social care services could be.

So in this episode, we'll explore what we are learning about a new way of government in the health and social care sectors, by looking at systems around the world that have transformed care, and speaking to changemakers in [00:04:00] and around government who are trying different approaches, so that the needs of those they care for come first.

We all rely on health and social care at some point in our lives. Everybody gets sick. It's all part of the human experience, but how can we make sure that the system is there to support people when they need it most?

Every person wants to feel that they have agency over their lives. Some of our most basic needs are to have a good quality of life, to be physically and mentally well, and to have relationships with others. A few years ago, I went to the Netherlands to visit Buurtzorg, a healthcare organisation that has taken revolutionary steps in community care. The word Buurtzorg means neighbourhood care, and I was intrigued by how the model was different.

When I first arrived at Buurtzorg, I was a little confused. Buurtzorg must look like the future.Yet this plain building just looked like any other care home I had been to. Where was the revolution?

I knocked, and a nurse [00:05:00] opened the door. I asked if I could speak to her for 15 minutes about her impressions of the organisation. She agreed and led me through the building.

Through talking to the nurse, I learned of the change to daily work this model offered to staff and the people that use the service. The Buurtzorg model centres the perspective of the person receiving the support, and a team of nurses builds relationships and tailors support to each individual, to offer them the bespoke support they need given the context of their life.

This team is made up of 12 people, typically nurses or social workers who are self-managed. They come up with strategies to support the person based on their relationships with them and an understanding of them, as well as the informal and formal networks of family, friends, and people around the person they're caring for.

And the Buurtzorg model really makes a difference to people's lives. Buurtzorg patient satisfaction scores are 30% above the national average in The Netherlands. Patients also stay in care for an average of five and a [00:06:00] half months compared to an industry average of seven and a half, which suggests that the model is more effective at helping people regain their independence.

The Buurtzorg model and many other organisations that are revolutionising health and social care show us that things can be different. Such models are such an important inspiration for the health and social care sector because for these services in particular, it is the relationships between practitioners and the people they support that are the key levers of change.

Children's social care is a prime example of this sort of service. It is the relationships that social workers have with children and families that can transform outcomes. Yet so many things get in the way. The British Association of Social Workers, for example, found that social workers are only able to spend 20% of their time with children and families. 80% is spent on paperwork and navigating bureaucracy.

After observing the Buurtzorg model and many other approaches in action, we at the Centre for [00:07:00] Public Impact worked with a team of children's social workers supported by Frontline, a UK social work charity, to develop a different vision for children's social care in England.

We wanted to show how a local authority could deliver its children's social care service in a way that prioritises relationships and time spent with children and families. We called it ‘A blueprint for children's social care.’

Michaela Berry is a Service Manager in children's services at a local authority in the East of England, and is one of the social workers we collaborated with to develop the blueprint. I also continue to work with her as part of Crescendo, a social worker-led initiative focused on enabling relationship-based and more effective social work.

Michaela Berry: So I shifted into social work management after about 10 years as a frontline social worker. I went into it to try and make things better for social workers and hence children and families. I'd seen a lot of social workers really struggling with the support they were getting from managers and just generally [00:08:00] in the field, and felt that I could make a real difference and enable them to do their best work.

I think the biggest challenge that social workers face in completing their daily tasks is just the sheer amount of work they've got to do. I think they are all hugely overloaded. I don't think anyone could do a really good job given the amount of work they've got to do and the amount of families that they're working with.

But in amongst that, there's also a lot of tasks that actually take them away from that direct interaction with children and families. Absolutely, in their view, they don't see the value of kind of filling in lots and lots of bits of paperwork and jumping through endless hoops to get services that they need for the families they're working with.

For me, it's really clear what government could do to help and what measures they could put in place. That would be by asking all levels of management within children's social care right up to the very top in the Department for Education, that any new policy or any new form or anything, any change they make in children's services, they need to ask themselves the question, [00:09:00] how does this facilitate the work of the social worker who's working directly with children and families? And when they base it in the reality of the day to day for those frontline workers, that's where they need to see that their new initiative or their new request or their new demand needs to be thought about in the reality of what is happening for that social worker.

So, how is it going to impact them building relationships with children and families, which is where the magic happens in social work. Good outcomes for children and families come through that relationship that the social worker forges with children and families.

So what is it about whatever's been introduced or whatever's been expected of a social worker that facilitates that at the heart of what it's trying to do? We just need to flip things so that everyone is thinking, what is it about my role in leadership or in management in social work that is facilitating the conditions for great social work to thrive?

That's what I think everybody's focus needs to be on, and I think things have moved so far away from that, that that's been completely lost.

Katie Rose: Relationships are the key to good [00:10:00] social work, making changes that enable social workers to spend more time with the people that need them could ultimately help support better outcomes.

Michaela Berry: So Crescendo is a collaboration between myself and two brilliant people, Katie and Ryan. I knew that any kind of big system change is going take a really long time, and I, what I wanted to do was using the principles that I'd seen and learned about, think about what I could do now. So working in that space between making no change and full system change, what could I realistically achieve?

And then a methodology called small changes emerged out of that, which is where you look at some of these huge barriers that are getting in the way of social workers doing their best work with children and families. And you just ask yourself, what is one change we can make? What is one small change that we could make that could improve this just a tiny bit. But actually, those small changes can build and bring about kind of bigger change.

So our work with Crescendo is very much about spreading this approach and kind of empowering social workers and leaders within the system to say, yes, we know huge change is needed, but [00:11:00] there is this approach that means you can make small incremental change along the way.

What's key to let you know about this Crescendo approach is that the ideas come from the frontline. We build a vision with the frontline of what they would like children's services to look like if they were to recreate it. We look then at the barriers that get in the way of living those values right now, and then that's when we kind of figure out what small changes would help us achieve that vision. How can we start to work towards that vision?

Katie Rose: But what differences have been made on a larger scale at a state-based level. And how are governments sharing power with those on the other side of the relationship, the children and families themselves? If we move further afield to Queensland, Australia, we can find out. Let me introduce you to Deidre Mulkerin, Director General of the Queensland Department of Children Youth Justice and Multicultural Affairs.

Deidre Mulkerin: So I started my working life as a frontline child protection youth justice worker, in the mid eighties. So there have been [00:12:00] so many changes during that time, and I think that what we have all been trying to do in improving the delivery of services and making sure that we deliver what we know works in a way that is contextual, makes sense in a particular community, a particular place.

So for the state that I work in Queensland, we have, you know, a large urban centre, the capital, and then right across the state to very small remote First Nations communities up in the Cape.

And whilst the problems or the challenges that we are working with in the community might have the same headline name such as domestic and family violence, the how we engage with the community and what the responses need to be are very contextual, very place-based.

The development of [00:13:00] the policy, the idea, the ability for government to endorse it, and whether you need legislative change or new funding. In a sense, that's sort of 10% of the job, and then 90% of it is how do you actually make it land on the ground?

So for me, I think there are lots of good learnings about how do you lead your people with good intent, ethics, values, so that you speak to why they come to this work? I refer to it as my North Star, no matter the noise and the reforms underway and the changes and the difficulties and the challenges.

What is my North star? What is my why? What's the purpose of the work? And I think that that's the first thing to start with. What is it that you are trying to achieve? How do you corral others around you [00:14:00] who are as equally committed and have as much energy for the change as you do? And not being afraid to pause and saying, mm, that did not go as we had hoped it would.

That does not look like what we intended, that does not seem to be having the impact that we desire. How can we pause, learn, change, listen to the voices of those that we are serving and iterate, iterate, iterate. Katie Rose: As Director General, Deidre is responsible for implementing policy and legislative reforms that seek to strengthen the child protection and family support system in Queensland.

Recent changes to the Children Protection Act has set down in law the need for children to have a voice and take part in decisions about their lives. Deidre Mulkerin: So here in Queensland we have a very strong partnership with a body that advocates on behalf of children and young [00:15:00] people in care. We also actively promote young peoples’ voices in our policy development and also in the co-design of new services or new initiatives.

So recently we announced here in Queensland, extending care support for children and young people leaving the care of the state to 21. We are right in the middle now of a co-design exercise with young people who are currently in care and who have recently left care asking them the question, what do they want that support to look like?

We've actually formally contracted some young people and paying them as young consultants to run focus groups so that we can hear directly what they want that support to look like, and then their advocacy body will also pull that together on behalf of all young people [00:16:00] in the state.

Of course, the most profound change really for us has been the way in which we work with our First Nations families and communities. And I think this is actually the area that we are the most mature about hearing and championing the voices of those with lived experience.

We have lots of very formal governance mechanisms. So for example, there is a board, and as the director general, I meet with them every quarter and I sit with them for two days. And any new initiative, any policy, any new practice, we have made a commitment, must go there.

Katie Rose: Reimagining children's social care in this way champions the voice of those who are often heard the least. Doing so is vital in promoting diversity of thought, creating a more inclusive conversation and enabling place-based approaches that are tailored to local needs. It also puts the power back into the hands of the community, who often have the most [00:17:00] knowledge and are therefore best placed to make decisions.

Deidre Mulkerin: So here in Queensland, we are embarking upon what is called delegated authority. So in essence, as the Director General, I am delegating my statutory authority directly to the CEO of a First Nations community controlled organisation to make the same decisions that any of my statutory officers inside the department would make.

My hope, and my plan, is that over the next five to ten years, all of the work that is done for and on behalf of First Nations children, families, and communities, is transitioned out of direct government delivery to community controlled organisations. So that communities, traditional owners, elders are making decisions for and on behalf of First [00:18:00] Nations children and families.

Katie Rose: But with health and social care organisations increasingly under pressure, what else might they be doing to support people? Evidence shows that investing in early childhood development is key to breaking the cycles of poverty in vulnerable areas. As we already know, in so many places around the world, health and social services are seeing an overwhelming rise in demand at the moment.

High demand and constrained budgets means that there is an even greater need to invest early so as to avoid exacerbating pressures on services. The challenge of meeting growing demand for care is even more pressing in places that are seeing rapid population growth.

Take Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia. Their population is set to exceed 6.5 million by 2027, 20% of which are children under the age of six. Jantirar Abay is the Deputy Mayor of Addis Ababa's [00:19:00] City Administration.

Jantirar Abay: The Early Childhood Development Initiative in Addis Ababa was started, before three years. This program was launched, especially 2020, uh, inside the country of Ethiopia.

But, uh, as a pilot project, we're just, uh, starting here in Addis Ababa. In this program, there are different initiatives that we inculcate on our developmental activities. The people living in Addis Ababa, around 25% of the people are living under poverty. Around 330,000 people, uh, need or aspire for help and assistance from the government side.

That's why just we are just targeting to invest on early childhood development program. We started the initiatives starting from parental coaching toward the physical infrastructure down to the ground, especially at the district level, to to make the program sustainable. The [00:20:00] centre of excellence, buildings and construction, we identified places.

We also identified the daycare centres, communal and public finance daycare centres, and we also give food assistance for the lactant and the pregnant women. Uh, these all things, uh, have an impact on the development of children. The first thing is the understanding within the society. People just are understanding the benefits of this program. Leaders are committed to run this program properly, and they are just, they are just committed enough to run the program down to the ground. They prepare a parcel of land. They prepare at each institution, a daycare centre. They identified the people who are very, very poor that may need help. First, they give priority for those people.

Our city’s main administration [00:21:00] decided to hire 5,000 health workers, especially for working parental coaching program. By now, we're processing 2,500 women, especially working on parental coaching program, working on children investing. All children will bring sustainable development.

Our problem is big but our initiative to start the program is very good with different modalities, capacity building, financial support, material support, whatever, especially for the early childhood development program is very important. Addressing this program properly in Addis Ababa will change the uh, capacity, the ability and mentally cognitive development of the children, will create sustainable development for the future.

Katie Rose: This is just one approach being taken in Addis Ababa. Each country and place faces its own [00:22:00] distinct health and social care challenges. And as we've seen from Buurtzorg care is better when it's tailored to people. We have seen this to be particularly true in recent states of emergency. When public servants collaborate across boundaries, it can often result in them finding better approaches.

And we'll find out more about that after this ad break.

Adrian Brown: Hi, it's Adrian here. Before we continue the episode, I want to let you know about the launch of a brand new series from Top American History and Politics podcast, the Last Best Hope hosted by Professor Adam Smith, Director of Oxford’s Rothermere American Institute. There's so much to learn from this series. From the roots of the cold-civil war that's dividing America to the relationship between the extraordinary levels of gun violence and the Second Amendment. Adam investigates the forces that are shaping the culture and politics of the United States today.

The title comes from [00:23:00] Abraham Lincoln's Second annual message to Congress, delivered one month before the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. It's a reminder of the powerful and enduring idea that America matters because of what it stands for. So how has America's role in the world changed and what might it be like in the future? This podcast makes sense of the state of modern politics and is intelligent and engaging. So tune in to the Last Best Hope available now on any of the popular podcast platforms.

Katie Rose: In 2020, governments were faced with the largest global health emergency the world has seen in decades. The COVID-19 pandemic has raised new questions about how government works at a local, national, and international level to [00:24:00] serve the public. But how did government officials, public servants, and those in health and social care work together to face this challenge in the US?

In May, 2020, the Rockefeller Foundation created the Testing Solutions Group, now known as the Pandemic Solutions Group. This was a bi-partisan network of public officials spanning US cities, states, counties, and tribal nations. Its focus was on pandemic preparedness and response, including testing, tracing, and vaccination in communities.

During the height of the COVID-19 pandemic the group met every two weeks as a peer network to learn about emerging methods and techniques from pioneering practitioners across the country. This drove collaboration around promising initiatives at both the state and local levels.

Here, government officials were able to engage directly with technical experts and colleagues, whilst also facilitating the exchange of real-time solutions associated with the testing, vaccination [00:25:00] and related pandemic response topics.

The Pandemic Solutions Group shows the benefits that can come from sharing, learning, and collaborating across boundaries and enabled public health officials and agencies across the US to rapidly scale their COVID-19 response. And yet, how could governments ensure that these solutions were reaching the most vulnerable parts of society?

One of the most troubling aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic was the disproportionate impact it had on those already facing disadvantage and discrimination, bringing to light many of the inequities and challenges faced when accessing healthcare. When people are faced with these barriers for decades, what can government do to build back trust with communities and ensure people get the healthcare they need?

Dr. Stephen B. Thomas is a Professor of Health Policy and Management and the Director of the Center for Health Equity at the University of Maryland. His current research focuses on translating evidence-based [00:26:00] science on chronic diseases into community based interventions designed to eliminate racial and ethnic disparities in health and healthcare.

Dr. Stephen B. Thomas: You know, the history of racism and discrimination in the healthcare delivery system would be easy to ignore if it wasn't so well documented. And so when we talk about nurturing relationships with the community, we're really talking about rebuilding trust.

Here we are in the United States of America where we spend more money on healthcare than any nation in the world, and yet we do not have the best health status.

And the pandemic really exposed that because the pandemic affected all of us. Hey, don't you remember when we used to say, Hey, we're all in this together. Uh, it's one big storm. We're all in this together.

And I totally agree and I love that sentiment. But you know what? We're in different boats. You know, some people are in cruise liners, some people are in speedboats, some people are in life rafts, and some people are just floating on their [00:27:00] own, trying to save their own lives. And those are the communities I work in. The communities where people are at the hell no wall, they have been the victims of a healthcare system that has neglected them because there is documented history of black people being used as guinea pigs.

And the most infamous example is the US Public Health Service syphilis study done at Tuskegee from 1932 to 1972. 40 years, black men who were recruited into this study were watched to see what would happen if their syphilis went untreated. It was not until 1972 that the study was stopped, and that was because of a front page newspaper story.

And so for many African Americans, when they have symptoms, they hesitate for getting care, and by the time they show up, things are so advanced that the medical cures we [00:28:00] have today don't work as well. So we're really talking about rebuilding a relationship that's been broken. And the distrust that people of colour have towards the healthcare delivery system is legitimate.

So we know we had an uphill climb, and so I hope that now that we're on the other side of creating a life saving vaccine in miracle time. Think about it, we're talking about a disease that we didn't even know existed three and a half years ago.

And in our work here in Prince George's County, Maryland, we came up with what we believe is a solution. And that is a hyperlocal, culturally tailored approach.

In other words, how about meeting people in places that they already have trust? And in many Black and brown communities, those are non-traditional settings like the Black barbershop and beauty salon. I have to tell my white friends, no self-respecting Black barber would whatever say, I'll get you in and out in 10 minutes.

You're gonna be, [00:29:00] half a day, no matter how much hair you have. And you have to understand when you come into a Black barber shop, you got multiple TVs on every wall and they're all turned to a different channel. And you got the music playing. So a lot of energy and the people are talking, people go to their barbers and stylists on a routine basis and they trust them.

And that's what we did. Our program is called Health Advocates In-Reach and Research (HAIR) where we literally bring medical professionals and public health services into barbershops and salons, and has been hugely, hugely successful.

Katie Rose: Dr. Thomas spearheaded ‘Shots at the Shop’, an initiative originating in Maryland communities based on the success of the HAIR campaign.

The ‘Shots at the Shop’ initiative seeks to build on the close relationships between the black community and their barbers in order to improve health outcomes and mitigate covid. In June, 2021, the Biden administration launched a national program modelled on this work [00:30:00] where barbershops served as vaccination locations.

Dr. Stephen B. Thomas: Here, in our shops in Maryland, we did the very first covid vaccine in a barbershop anywhere in the United States. And it got picked up in the local newspapers.

My local newspapers of Washington Post and lo and behold, we get a call from the White House and the White House says to me, “Hey, we've been watching what you're doing out there in these barbershops. Do you think you can scale this?” and the rest is history.

And now we have over a thousand barbershops and salons all across the United States that have gone through our rapid response training for barbers and stylists to mitigate COVID. And it was so successful that we actually closed the vaccination gap between whites and blacks. We actually closed the gap even in death from COVID during that period between whites and blacks.

Katie Rose: Dr. Thomas' work is another example of the importance of building trust with the community and [00:31:00] collaborating across boundaries, which in this case has been fundamental in advancing health equity and better health outcomes more broadly.

Dr. Stephen B. Thomas: You, you know, you can't just take um, a brochure from the Center for Disease Control and translate it into Spanish and say, Hey, this is for the Hispanic community. You can't just take a brochure from these National Institutes of Health and put a Black face on it and say, this is for the African American community.

We learned that a hyper-local approach means you need to understand the history of that community. You need to frame the message from their point of view. You need to meet them where they are, and sometimes that's answering their questions.

It may have nothing to do with the vaccine. It may have to do with how their mother or uncle, or loved one was mistreated the last time they were in a hospital, that might be where the conversation has to start, if you want to build trust.

You want me to roll up my sleeve and you put a needle in my arm? I really, really need [00:32:00] to trust you, and that means it has to be more than the jab. You can't just give me the jab and leave me with the diabetes. You can't just come in and give us the vaccine and leave us with the cancer. That's what we believe is how we rebuild trust, long term, to address health disparities.

We need these healthcare systems to do what we know works in reaching our most vulnerable members of our community, dealing with the everyday diseases that for far too many people of colour have them living sicker and dying younger.

Katie Rose: You may remember Nachiket Mor from our first episode. He is trained as an economist and is a Visiting Scientist at the Banyan Academy of Leadership in Mental Health. Here he gives us a greater insight into the considerable challenges facing developing countries such as India when seeking to [00:33:00] improve healthcare.

Nachiket Mor: I have long had the belief that the people of India know what they need and what they want. If we are to take the country forward and to develop it, we need to in some ways enable them and empower them to do that. And over the last 10 years, what I have, I would say my learning is still continuing, but what I have started to see is that solutions will have to embrace the underlying complexity of our health system.

Simple ideas perhaps, which may have worked in a different time, were not going to work in India. We have to start with what I would call a strength based narrative. We have many weaknesses, um, in the country. We don't have enough doctors. We don't have enough surgeons. We have fewer than 10,000 psychiatrists. But the reality is that [00:34:00] those issues are not going to change, uh, as rapidly as we would like.

And perhaps, as the country progresses over the next 10 or 20 years, the solutions may not even lie in addressing those problems. I believe there are a number of strengths. For example, our very population, is a strength.

Is it possible to imagine an environment in which we are able to recruit local talent, work with them as health aids as community health workers are attempting to borrow not from Great Britain, which has the GP system, which requires resources that we don't have, but looking much more to what Ethiopia has done, what Iran has done, what Alaska has done, and, and taking those ideas which have built on community strengths.

Can we use our technology? India and Indians are building [00:35:00] software for the best of health systems around the world. Is it possible for us to combine our human resources with this technology to, in some ways, even attempt to leapfrog over what other countries have done? I think the government have made progress, but I think it's still been inch by inch progress.

These issues need to be embraced fully if we are to build a sustainable future, and these are lessons I think we would have to learn for ourselves. I don't think we can take a model from anywhere else in the world and necessarily just transplant it here. So these would be some of the areas in which kind of new governance styles will need to be built.

Katie Rose: As Nachiket maintains people and communities know what they want and what they need. By seeking out the strengths in [00:36:00] communities, we can reimagine health and social care in a way that builds on the existing infrastructures to enhance outcomes for all.

Adrian Brown: As we are learning, reimagining the health and care space is no easy task. Each country and indeed community has their own needs and challenges in improving access and outcomes. But from listening to our guests in this episode, it feels like a new way of being and doing in government is possible and is being pioneered by changemakers around the world.

And there are some common themes that have emerged, whether that is the importance of collaborating across boundaries or the need to work closely with communities to shape health and social care services that are tailored to each local context. As we learned in the US, racial and ethnic inequalities can create unique challenges in this space.

A sense of legitimacy and establishing relationships within communities is key to ensuring access to healthcare for all. [00:37:00]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Reimagining Government. The conversation on the theme of this episode, Reimagining Health and social care continues over on apolitical.co.

If you are a public servant or government official, we want to hear from you. What's the most inspiring example you've seen of collaboration in the provision of health and social care in your country? Head over to the apolitical Q&A link in the show notes to this episode, and share your experiences with other public servants from all over the world.

Next time on the podcast, CPI’s Director for Government Legitimacy in North America Jorge Fanjul will be guiding us through how governments can more meaningfully centre equity in their work. Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing to Reimagining Government on your favourite podcast platform and remember also to leave us a review and tell us how we're doing. Until next time, I've been Adrian Brown.

Goodbye.